⌚ How Does The Grandmother Influence Anna Of Byzantium

Saturday, June 26, 2021 6:22:43 PM

How Does The Grandmother Influence Anna Of Byzantium

That means Dean was approximately 24 or During the late fourth century there Personal Narrative Essay: The War On Terror How Does The Grandmother Influence Anna Of Byzantium fifty of them. Sam tells him to pedro lopez serial killer over it and Dean yells How Does The Grandmother Influence Anna Of Byzantium him for drinking demon blood, before Sam gets what is a micro teach request from Bobby to head to his house. It turns out How Does The Grandmother Influence Anna Of Byzantium be prophetic - the nightmare becomes reality when loses control and single-handedly kills several men after they attack him. How Does The Grandmother Influence Anna Of Byzantium yells at Sam by saying, "If you walk out that door, don't you ever come back," after which Sam leaves the How Does The Grandmother Influence Anna Of Byzantium. Some people think that in the How Does The Grandmother Influence Anna Of Byzantium Age is related to these cultures having a valediction of weeping How Does The Grandmother Influence Anna Of Byzantium that once people died they joined into a collective of How Does The Grandmother Influence Anna Of Byzantium that would protect or watch over the How Does The Grandmother Influence Anna Of Byzantium, and so the burial deemphasized them as individuals, although I wonder if How Does The Grandmother Influence Anna Of Byzantium could be How Does The Grandmother Influence Anna Of Byzantium simple as that monuments took significant effort The Outsiders Paragraph a How Does The Grandmother Influence Anna Of Byzantium and it would be more efficient in terms of space to have lots of bones in the same place.

Anna of Byzantium Ch. 17-18

If he is in the likeness of God, and rules the whole earth, and has been granted authority over everything on earth from God, who is his buyer, tell me? Who is his seller? To God alone belongs this power; or, rather, not even to God himself. For his gracious gifts, it says, are irrevocable. Romans God would not therefore reduce the human race to slavery, since he himself, when we had been enslaved to sin, spontaneously recalled us to freedom.

But if God does not enslave what is free, who is he that sets his own power above God's? There are many similarities between Gregory's theology and neoplatonist philosophy , especially that of Plotinus. However, some significant differences between neoplatonism and Gregory's thought exist, such as Gregory's statement that beauty and goodness are equivalent, which contrasts with Plotinus' view that they are two different qualities. Eastern Orthodox theologians are generally critical of the theory that Gregory was influenced by neoplatonism. For example, Metropolitan Hierotheos of Nafpaktos argues in Life After Death that Gregory opposed all philosophical as opposed to theological endeavour as tainted with worldliness. The Roman Martyrology commemorates his death on 9 March.

In modern Roman Catholic calendars which include the feast of St. Gregory, such as the Benedictines, his feast day is observed on 10 January. Gregory is remembered with Macrina in the Church of England with a lesser festival on 19 July. Gregory is revered as a saint. However, unlike the other Cappadocian fathers, he is not a Doctor of the Church. He is venerated chiefly in the East. His relics were held by the Vatican until , when they were translated to the Greek Orthodox church of St. Gregory of Nyssa, San Diego , California. Professor of theology, Natalie Carnes wrote: "One reason Gregory was not taken up into the theological stream in the West is that he was little translated into Latin.

John Scotus Eriugena c. Gregory's work received little scholarly attention in the West until the mid-twentieth century, and he was historically treated as a minor figure in comparison to Basil the Great or Gregory of Nazianzus. Modern studies have mainly focused on Gregory's eschatology rather than his more dogmatic writings, and he has gained a reputation as an unconventional thinker whose thought arguably prefigures postmodernism. In , theologian David Bentley Hart published a book seemingly influenced by Gregory. Let us then, consider who were the venerable doctors and indomitable champions of the Church [including] Gregory Primate of Nyssa, who all have called the father of fathers.

Henry Fairfield Osborn wrote in his work on the history of evolutionary thought , From the Greeks to Darwin :. Among the Christian Fathers the movement towards a partly naturalistic interpretation of the order of Creation was made by Gregory of Nyssa in the fourth century, and was completed by Augustine in the fourth and fifth centuries. God imparted to matter its fundamental properties and laws. The objects and completed forms of the Universe developed gradually out of chaotic material. Gregory has often been credited with the discovery of mystical theology, or rather with the perception that darkness is an appropriate symbol under which God can be discussed. There is much truth in this Gregory seems to have been the first Christian writer to have made this important point.

Kameron Carter writes about Gregory's stance on slavery, in the book Race a Theological Account :. What interests me is the defining features of Gregory's vision of the just society: his unequivocal stance against 'the peculiar institution of slavery' and his call for the manumission of all slaves. I am interested in reading Gregory as a fourth century abolitionist intellectual His outlook surpassed not only St.

Paul's more moderate but to be fair to Paul, in his moment, revolutionary stance on the subject but also those of all ancient intellectuals -- Pagan, Jewish and Christian - from Aristotle to Cicero and from Augustine in the Christian West to his contemporary, the golden mouthed preacher himself, John Crysotom in the East. Indeed, the world would have to wait another fifteen centuries -- until the nineteenth century, late into the modern abolitionist movement -- before such an unequivocal stance against slavery would appear again.

Less prolific than Origen, less cultivated than Gregory Nazianzen, less practical than Basil, Gregory of Nyssa nonetheless outstrips them all in the profundity of his thought. From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Icon of St. Gregory of Nyssa 14th-century fresco , Chora Church , Istanbul. Aquinas , Scotus , and Ockham. Mosaic of Christ Pantocrator , Hagia Sophia. Autocephalous jurisdictions. Noncanonical jurisdictions. Evangelical Orthodox Western Orthodoxy. Celts France Gaul. Ecumenical councils. Eighth Ninth. Quinisext Council Jassy Moscow Jerusalem. Liturgy and worship. Liturgical calendar. People by era or century. Desert Fathers. Contemporary papal views. Aspects of meditation Orationis Formas , Louis, , p.

Translated by Anna M. Silvas, p. Schaff—Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge. London and New York: Funk and Wagnalls. Malherbe and Everett Ferguson ; pref. Gregory of Nyssa ". Retrieved Illinois Classical Studies. University of Illinois Press 33—34 : — JSTOR Gregory of Nyssa: Dogmatic Treatises, Etc. Retrieved 30 March Retrieved 17 August April 23, Retrieved July 1, The Orthodox Life". November 23, Bentley Hart Scottish Journal of Theology, 54, pp Homilies on Ecclesiastes. Translated by Hall; Moriarty. New York: de Gruyter. ISBN The Church of England. Church of St. Gregory of Nyssa, San Diego. Archived from the original on 4 June Retrieved 22 January Eugene, Oregon.

OCLC The same year Coakley's book was published, one of the contributors to that volume released his own book drawing considerably on Gregory: David Bentley Hart published The Beauty of the Infinite. Hart writes systematic theology in the tradition of Gregory, yet in conversation with contemporary thinkers. He writes Nyssen theology in the same way theologians for years have written Augustinian theology. Presence and thought : essay on the religious philosophy of Gregory of Nyssa.

San Francisco: Ignatius Press. While some of the E-V13 and J2b branches of these samples might belong to the ones that are common in Albanians, aren't the two R1b's part of the "Near Eastern" and CNE outliers respectively? So they were part of genotypes that were foreign to the region. If the latter is the case, we would have no local genotypes with R1b-Z, which is very strange, given its frequency in modern Albanians.

These studies are likely to annoy nationalists from both Serbia and Albania, as they might suggest that proto-Albanians lived in now Slavic lands, and that Albanians did not always inhabit Albania. The authors themselves indicated that the ancient Croatian samples seemed to have been autosomally closer towards Slovenian Iron Age samples likely Celtic-influenced , and not the Serbian Iron Age and Roman local samples. The Balkans have always been a melting pot, and nationalist propaganda is not going to cut it as science advances - be it Greek, South Slavic, or Albanian.

Lets not forget the Palatial Aegean fiasco. The upcoming samples from North Macedonia will hopefully help us resolve the proximate origins of modern Greeks. Not directly germane to the topic but sort of close - is there any consensus on how Greek modern day Anatolian Turks are? I've recently been reading a bit on the initial Turkish conquest of Anatolia in the 11thth centuries and it's truly staggering just how destructive and pervasive Turkish raids really were. The Byzantines don't seem like they ever really had much of a chance. Second, what do you mean by anatolians? Who are the anatolians today? Ofc mainland Greeks less compared to Greek islanders who are pretty much mostly Anatolian-Levantine pop plus some Slavic.

As for balkaners they show similar components as well at least South balkaners, Romanians inclunding are pretty much IA balkanic romanicized folks With Imperial mix plus the Slavic input. Its obvious this Middle East influx existed long before the Slavic invasion. And as we can see they left some genetic impact. Ofc it decreased in some way with the Germanic and Slavic conquests both in Italy and Southeast Europe. There is even an African Sudanese like individual founded in the recent study. These Romans were the globalists of the Ancient World. They were taking mercenaries even from Africa. Imagine how many mercenaries and diplomats they received from Anatolia, Levant,Mesopotamia etc.

By contrast, 'refugees' from these provinces and elsewhere swelled in regions such as Epirus, which show continuity through the late Migration Era and into Middle Ages. Linguistically, Albanian has long proven a connection with Illyrian and Messapic too , so I don't know what some here are going on about. The Albanoi themselves were an Illyrian tribe, and Illyrian tribe names are all linked to names of animals and plants in the modern Albanian language. See Dalmatia, Taulanti, Dardania, etc It seems this Leonidas is some Greek dude "concern trolling" the rest of the Balkans.

These samples though are not representative of all Iron Age Balkans, but northern parts. Both that Mycenean study and this I might say are pure garbage. The data is FINE, but the conclusion and comparisons make no sense. Really disappointing. At least this study takes into account Slavic migrations to the Balkans, unlike the Mycenean study that just skimmed over it.

But the reference populations make no sense. Maybe some of it came through Anatolia with Turks also. We already knew that of course by looking at modern Greek mtDNA distribution, where we find many clades of clear Northern Balkan and Slavic origin. But since nobody takes mtDNA into account for some reason, it's nice to see it formally acknowledged. It's ok, the East Med is cool :. Where can one look to? Considering the numbers of samples being sequenced these days, it shouldn't be too difficult to find some early Slavs for a paper like this, which really needs them. USing Global25, you can also find some minor Anatolian-related gene flow in most Balkaners up to Croatians but not even in all the samples.

Given the papers, it was like that during ancient-times too, the NE cluster in the paper is not as Levantine shifted as some modern-day Anatolians are. There's definitely Bronze Age and later Anatolian ancestry in the Balkans, because Balkan samples from the Iron Age and earlier sit on a different cline from modern Balkan groups. You can see that on any decent PCA of Europe that compares modern and ancient samples. Tom: yes, paternal N among Greeks is probably related to Avars, Magyars and such, quite possibly via Slavs. They need a 'Slozad' like refrence in their modelings You can also check it as i mention above from the PCA's. As for the lineages you mention,there are indeed some weird clades can be found in Greece from I2,I1 to R1b.

Don't forget that was Greece raided even from Celts and Germanics during the periods Anatolian Greeks from the west coast are nothing else but mainland Greeks and Greek islanders in their autosomal. They are immigrants there during the Ottoman times diplomats,merchants,sailors,traders etc. They got zero relation with ancient anatolians. Also,keep in mind that the bronze age anatolian samples we got until now.. Anyway,with a few words Davidski There's some of course, I was just mentioning that not all samples have it in G25 runs I did. Maybe most Greeks and Albanians do but not really Serbs and Croatians. Btw, could I ask your thoughts on that Globetrotter paper?

Reducing admixture analyses to small haplotypes inevitably increases noise, and sometimes it's even possible to mistake the direction of gene flow, so no, I don't take those sorts of papers too seriously when they're claiming that minor percentages of admixture are real. Dragon Hermit what are you talking about? A proven connection between Albanian and Illyrian? You seriously need to start familiarizing yourself with the primary literature on the ancient languages of the Balkans, otherwise the nationalist propaganda you have been regurgitating here is going to melt your brain. The fact that some Illyrian words can be explained through Albanian means at best that the languages might have been distantly related - even that is debatable, as Illyrian is one of the least known languages of the area.

What you have to explain is how proto-Albanian matches perfectly all the linguistic transformations of Daco-Moesian at least times better attested than Illyrian , and at exactly the same time. Can you think why? Funny that you mention the Taulanti. Compare to Illyrian: Taulantius, Autariatae, Teuta, etc. What does it say about Daco-Moesian and Albanian? Georgiev was a genius, and you definitely aren't. Or are you going to say that he was biased because he was a Slav? There are barely 20 ancient Greek loanwords in Albanian, because the speakers of this language had always been above the Jirecek line. Do you even know what I am talking about? Now about genetics, virtually all likely proto-Albanian lines E-V13, R1b-Z, J2b are most diverse in the extreme North of Albania, Kosovo, and Montenegro, corroborating linguistic data that Albanians expanded from the North in the last years.

Also, why does Albanian J2b belong to such a different branch from ancient Croatian J2b, if the former are Illyrian descendants? No matter how much you might hate this conclusion, genetics is a pretty precise science, and you know that this pattern is true. You need a serious reality check, otherwise you are going to keep repeating ridiculous nationalist claims, in the same way that some Greeks believe that Vlachs are latinised Greeks, and that the Arvanites are a Dorian tribe. This doesn't mean I am going to leave propaganda from either country unchallenged.

So we need to go further downstream than R-CTS if we are going to attempt an ethnic affiliation of the two samples from the Olalde et al. Foxvillager "they got zero relation with ancient anatolians. I don't really know about Cappadocian Greeks but I think you misunderstood me, I didn't claim that the Anatolian admixture in Greeks was from modern-day Anatolian Greeks though I suppose some of that too, I'd expect so at least. In fact my point was that the Anatolian ancestry most Greeks and Balkaners received does not seem to be as heavy in Levantine components as a lot of modern-day Anatolian ancestry is,although also didn't lack them entirely.

Islanders on the other hand seem to have received more actual Levantine ancestry. Davidski Thanks for the reply. In G25 at least, there seems to be some minor MENA ancestry all the way up till southern France, though Basques don't show it and then some Italian ancestry in south Germans. Eastern Europeans west of Estonia don't really show Siberian although Polish and other Slavs show something EHG-related which might not even be there in reality since I think you had talked about this in an earlier post. Gamerz I have played a lot in G25 with various balkan pops inclunding Greeks.

It depends individual. Its obvious that these west asian immigrants were not homogenous genetically but coming from all over the middle east. Might had been anatolians,armeno-caucasians,mesopotamians,levantines even Perso-Iranics. What we can say for sure it is that balkans or at least south balkans ,Italy,Greece and maybe even some parts of Iberia? I am pretty sure and i believe that if it wasn't the Slavic and Germanic expansion towards to the former Roman Empire lands the middle east influx would had been quite higher from what it today. David, as Arza said in his blog: "Luckily it's a preprint, so there's room for improvement. This paper was based on the city of Viminacium, which isn't exactly "deep-south" balkans.

There are bound to be near-eastern samples found up all the way to Pannonia atleast. Why don't they use ancient Greek samples from actual geographic Greece? Instead of a Greek speaking population from ancient Iberia? How silly. I have many thoughts, some of which I've expressed before here and elsewhere. Despite some of the apparent headscratchers Uralic proxies, conclusion of no lasting Anatolian shift in Balkanites north of Greece, etc. For that alone I'm thankful.

By the time of the Hellenistic period, probably more southern Greek ancestry coming into the area as well, I'd imagine. As far as modelling the samples with strong Anatolian ancestry goes, I think the reason Barcin Chalcolithic worked best in the paper might be because it has some steppe not found in the BA Isparta samples. The Imperial Roman-era Greek sample from Marathon is clearly going to plot near these heavily Anatolian-like people, probably somewhere in between Cypriots and Dodecanese if I had to guess. In fact, I suspect a cline like this might also have existed during the IA and classical times, but became even more firmly established during the Hellenistic period, with perhaps most Greeks falling more on the Anatolian side than LBA Aegean side by the Roman period.

We will have to wait and see how the Himera samples turn out, but I think many might have been too quick to assume that classical Greeks will all look like Emporiotes. And we know already Mycenaeans will be more diverse than what we've seen. And who knows how things might have changed after the BA collapse. Two Emporiotes isn't a lot to go on. It is however interesting to note that the East Med cluster in general where modern Aegean islanders and Southern Italians plot doesn't quite fall in the middle of a Near Eastern Anatolia and Levant to Mycenaean cline.

The cluster seems shifted off-center of this line, toward mainstream Europe. This can be explained by Slavic and Italic and Germanic ancestry in Greeks and Italians respectively, though the shift might be older than that in some cases. Genos Historia, here's a shout out for your You Tube Channel. I was searching through You Tube and my algorhythyms presented your video. I didn't make the connection until you gave credit to David's Eurogenes blog in your video. Anyway, I subscribed and encouraged others to do so. I look forward to your future videos.

Leonidas, if you try to discredit Albanian - Illyrian connection in haplogroup "J2b", I'm afraid you will be disappointed. Furthermore, as is the case with J-Y, the vast majority of Albanian J2b-L belongs to J-Z branch which is parallel to MBA Dalmatian sample , and according to preprint data of the recent Daunian paper who are thought to have migrated from ancient Illyria , two of the J2b-L samples in Daunians are under J-Z branch.

Since the diversity of R-Z is greater in the western Balkans, my honest opinion is this is native to the western half of the Balkans. There is also a R1b-Z sample among Daunians. But, anyway, let's wait for more aDNA from the Balkans before jumping into any conclusions, including E-V13 samples that belong to Albanian branches.. Leonidas D said Early Corded Ware like ancestry? Hades This 'Greek' speaking population from Catalonia contains the same autosomal profile like the samples we got from bronze age Greece Lazaridis paper. These people founded colonies in France,Italy,Spain etc. We are not talking for a hellenized pop here Grave 97 downstream CTS?

Remains of a stone construction around the skull. Finds Pl. VII, 5 : 1. This was a remnant of a posthumous feast, given as an offering to the deceased. Sds, Awesome! Yes, it is hard to get the attention of the youtube algorithm so that's good news. Thanks for subscribing. Next I will be making a video on the issue of whether Yamnaya is the ancestor of Corded Ware. I'm gonna be asking for some advise from people at this blog about this issue. Drake Interesting models there. Indeed Croats are not so northern shifted as they imagine never understand why they consider serbs and bosniaks alliens in comparison with them.

Hungarians def assilimated latinicized balkaners Romano-Vlachs etc. Let me guess Bavaria or Baden? So this genetic profile hasn't disappeared by then. Foxvillager "I have played a lot in G25 with various balkan pops inclunding Greeks. Judging from my latest G25 vahaduo models, which I was trying to keep as unsupervised as possible, my Or something in between? Do you see a homogenous autosomal profile for the Celts of central and western EU?

Some indiviudals ploting quite northern while others have central Italian mix and they showing this 'Imperial'middle east influx. Matt, I saw your reply to my video in the other thread. But I don't think it will change the basic conclusions we've come to. I'd like to your guys' thoughts. I just really wanted to emphasize in his book he didn't give much attention to Corded Ware. Gjenetika I'm just interested in finding out what happened, as I am sure you do. I am somewhat surprised that the Balkan Iron Age samples of Olalde et al. The ancient Croatian J2b branches do not seem to support the hypothesis that the bulk of the Albanian paternal lineages are Illyrian.

As you yourself said, the most widespread J2b lineages in Albanians under J-Y are parallel or more correctly, sister to those of the ancient Croatians. A sister-group relationship between Croatian and Albanian J2b lines certainly indicates a close relationship, but not direct descent. So my initial claim that at least up to now, ancient Croatian J2b is not ancestral to most of the Albanian J2b, is correct, and I absolutely did not cherry pick anything. Also, as far as I know, the J-PH sample you mentioned is Vlach, not Albanian although the two peoples were definitely part of the same, or at least related group in antiquity.

On the contrary, Vlachs moved a lot, and their original homeland was not in modern day Albania, but slightly to the North-East. So it is more likely that J-PH is not local to Albania. FT , but these lines are so remarkably rare in Albanians today, that it is obvious they played no big role in their ethnogenesis. Hellenized and Slavicized populations almost certainly lived further to the South, as we know from archaeology and toponymy.

Which brings me to the last question, that so far nobody has answered. Your own excellent website, plus Rrenjet, show that the greatest diversity of E-V13, J2b and R1b-Z exists in North Albania and Kosovo, and it gets decreasingly diverse as you go South. Please tell me honestly that this is not evidence for a North-to-South migration, which has been repeated so many times by linguists as well? And it explains perfectly why Albanian is so strongly influenced by Latin - because it was above the Jirecek line. No one disputes this. It is simply too early to make a connection between Croatian and Albanian J2b. What will we do if we find that both Daco-Moesians and Illyrians had very similar Y-lineages?

I do not think I have anything else to contribute on this particular debate, at least from a genetic perspective. Leonidas, you need to be educated on what Y-DNA diversity is. There are countless "sibling" clades next to each other spread out geographically. The people called "Illyrians" if they were homogenous that is by the Greeks and Romans occupied a coastline over miles.

They lived from Greece all the way to Austria. If you want to study genetic continuity in a region, then look at THAT region. Croatia is not Albania. If you notice, I try to stay away from making any genetic claims for now, because we need more data and these studies certainly are NOT helping. But linguistically you are grasping at straws from outdated theories akin to the "Indo-European languages came from Anatolia". How much external genetic input they got from Slavs, Greeks, Anatolia, etc I also laugh at the fact that you don't even understand basic autosomal PCA plots. A father and son who is biracial for example can plot very different from one another in those graphs.

It doesn't mean they are not related. That's why you need something similar to that "23 and me" distant cousin analysis to determine genetic flow between two groups. Anyway, the phylogeny we have clearly doesn't support that either. First time I'm hearing all this. It is a bit provocative. That's okay. However, we should all recognize that David Anthony's book was written by so it is easy to criticize an old version of anything. I used to sell software. The scientists at the Reich Lab have more rigorous standards than we do. They have to be have completed their scientific processes data collection and controls, documentation, citations, peer review, etc. This doesn't make us smarter than them for talking about something publicly before they do.

You might consider this before criticizing them. The other suggestion I have for your video is that the cartoon figures and simplistic assertions are not necessarily credible. Some people like that kind of stuff but I'm not sure how that goes. Genos, I actually didn't watch the video no "shade", just we've discussed a lot of the likely content and I'm not a big Youtube video-explainer-watcher. Point I'm making only that although there's this large demic expansion of CWC steppe groups to North-Central Europe, there is also still a trail of admixing steppe ancestry through Carpatho-Balkan region via Yamnaya. Even if only for some of expansion of pIE , Anthony's model spreading through that region by recruitment of local chiefs etc into Yamnaya culture is not yet necessarily precluded, just because we know the CWC to have been more of steppe ancestry initially than many archaeologists thought ignoring as they did the anthropometry to focus on the re-use of similar axes to TRB and to pottery?

Yes, people might prefer a model where it only happened one way it is more parsimonious but languages can spread with multiple different levels of genetic flow in different circumstances at the same time. There's a plot there that provides a nice comparison to the one that I did which Davidski used in the below post. Dragon Hermit I am going to stop responding at your posts now, because there is no reason to discuss with a person who just uses google to inform themselves regarding major linguistic debates.

Are you seriously saying that citing major linguists such as Vladimir Georgiev, is comparable to say that IE came from Anatolia? The rest of your points are not even worth responding to. Why not slightly to the East, in the Central Balkans, like most linguistic evidence suggests? Its not like they came from Gjirokaster - are the Daunians not too North? You know, like the Albanian-Illyrian connection you are trying to establish. I think this is crystal clear. Gjenetika Continuing my previous post. What you are choosing to do, is to ignore fundamental questions for the Albanian ethnogenesis, which unfortunately do not suit the nationalist narrative: 1 Why does your own dataset show such a high diversity of Albanian paleo-Balkan lineages in North Albania and Kosovo, which rapidly decreases the more South you go?

If we saw this in any other population, we would suggest that a North-to-South migration is very likely among other scenarios, which I can list if you want. Why does this pattern not apply to Albanians? How could Albanian have evolved in Albania, when ancient authors mentioned that most of the Illyrians in what is now Albania were at least bilingual in their native tongue and Greek? Why did proto-Albanian treat Illyrian toponyms in the same way it treated Latin loans - i.

And of course, why did Nis in Serbia take its name from an Albanian intermediary? Until you answer these questions, nobody in the genetics and linguistics community will take you seriously. This is situation is further aggravated by the facts that Albanian nationalist claims are not even consistent; the internet is riddled with crackpot theories linking them to Illyrians, Pannoanians, Liburnians, "Dardanians", Messapians, "Pelasgians", "Dorians" etc.

You can't descend from all of these people. Baltic is the best proxy when trying to reconstruct the roots of proto-Albanian IE words; this doesn't mean that Albanian and Baltic are the same language. If Illyrian and Albanian followed the same phonological rules, then you would have a case. But you know how most Albanologists describe the connection between Illyrian and Albanian? I also understand that since the rise of Albanian nationalism, autochthony to Albania and arrival there prior to the Slavs are of the outmost importance to the national narrative, in the same way that many Greeks are in denial about the impact of the Slavic invasions in their country. However, what people from across the Balkans Albanians, Greeks, and Slavs need to come to terms with, is that 21st century diplomacy has moved away from claims of autochthony and blood ties when trying to resolve disputes in our multiethnic and interconnected world.

And this is a major step forward for humanity as a whole. I think I am going to stop responding at this point, as I feel we are going in circles. Do you want a list of papers claiming the opposite? There a few "odd" uniparental lineages in south Germany and France that I've noticed but overall nothing significant. Foxvillager " I have played a lot in G25 with various balkan pops inclunding Greeks. Leonidas Like literally no one? Bold claim. But to establish where this occurred, we'd have to understand the demographic situation in the Balkans in the s - s, not imagine some vague and static notions of Iron Age 'Daco-Moesians'.

You've completely omitted this dimension of evidence. At this time, the province of Epirus shows clear archaeological evidence of populations moving from the central Balkans toward the southwest, bolstering those who were already there. This is clear to any archaeologist. The Romance toponyms in northern Kruja zone in no way excludes a diglossic, or even multi-glossic situation at least amongst certain segments of the communities which were buried there. Moreover, this is very similar to what happened with Welsh. I am not an expert of the Albanian language.

But from an Albanian friend.. Not sure if this is true or not. Maybe some of the Albanian users here can inform us. As for France, Provence would have this admixture as any other region in the Balkans would; Provence was a major Roman urban center. In fairness, the authors aren't trying to establish the population genetic history of the Balkans back to the beginning of time, only for the last two thousand years or so, presumably from a baseline of the populations that existed in the Iron Age or in the Classical Greco-Roman period. They are only peeling off the top layers of the onion so to speak. Francis Drake "What do you mean by forced? I know I repeat this like a mantra, but: 1.

So we can assume with a high degree of probability that these people have been around since then. By called Germanic by you and Y are present here all the time, from the Bronze Age to today. We know this SNP Y from, among others. Alani samples etc. So, for example, if suppose Y was present in the Lusatian culture, it could have migrated with it towards the SE and stayed in an area that was later inhabited by Iron Age nomads who "absorbed" Y From PH we can see that this and the following SNPs are mainly dominated by Poles and Czechs with small amounts from other countries.

Many Czech samples seem to come from older Polish ones. What could all this mean? On 1 - that we can say that YPH is "Slavic" if we think about the fact that today it is most common in countries with a Slavic language Poland and the Czech Republic After 2 - we absolutely cannot say that this is the Y DNA of the ancient Slavs. The Z in this part of Europe is probably from the Bronze Age, so according to history, the first ethnically named tribes in this region Iron Age are Germanic. It also suggests contacts with Europe N. At most "slavinized". Foxvillager "I am not an expert of the Albanian language. Although structurally Albanian shares some characteristics with Balto Slavic, it differs from them.

It is is not a fully Satemized language as it has both Satem and Kentum examples. Apparently has a three velar series and other odd characteristics. Furthermore someother features have made some linguist think that they should be grouped with Germanic, while others think they should be grouped with Greek Armenian. Of what has remained as a written evidence from the old languages Albanian is linked with Mesaapic languages. It shares also a lot of words with Romanian. Now the problem lies exactly here. Mesaapic is considered an Illyrian language, while Romanin it is thought to be spoken by descendants of Dacians.

The case is either Albanian is Illyrian and shared words with Romanian are loan words from Albanian to Romanian, or Illyrian and Dacians were strongly related Languages thus the corresponding words. As usual in this case the Balkan disputes come into place. To the Romanian nationalists the fact that the shared words could be loan words from Albanian means that Romanian ethnogenesis happened outside modern day Romania.

That is unacceptable so many go for the hypothesis that Albanians derive from unasimilated Dacians who moved to current Albania in medieval times while other Dacians were assimilated. Usually the same discourse is supported by nationalists in Serbia and Greece. On the other hand Croatians and Hungarians support the other version. That the Albanians come from Illyrians. In the end of the day what remains is that from archaeological linguistic evidence, Albanian is connected with Mesaapic and Mesaapic is usually considered as an Illyrian language.

Linguistically Albanian is linked with Mesaapic. So either those shared words with Romanian are loan words either the ancestor of Romanians were very closely related to Messapian people. Aigest In the real world, however, no expert supports the delirious theories you are mentioning. The linguistic evidence is quite strong that proto-Vlach evolved somewhere around the Morava valley. The Albanian cognates in Vlach in fact represent a common linguistic substrate, not loans, as has been repeated countless of times in publications in the last 60 years, which you of course choose to? It is true that Romanian nationalism cannot accept that the Romanian language came from Vlachs migrating northwards, in the same way that Albanian nationalists cannot accept that their language came from elsewhere.

Dranoel I'm not sure what you are trying to say, as you have contradicted yourself several times in your own post: "If I can cut in - calling Y typically Slavic is not correct. Am I correct to say that this haplogroup has spread into the Balkans via the Slavs? I think your argument has the same validity as saying that haplogroup I1 is not Germanic, but a hunter-gatherer one. Yes, if you compare different time periods together you might say that, but the fact is, I1 was transmitted to most of Central and Southern Europe by Germanic speakers. One read I could make of them which I expect the more archaeologically minded and knowledgable posters - Rob - will reject ; the former CWC were a group of steppe people who as they moved into Europe used stone-axes and Corded Ware pottery, which it seems some archaeologists link to both being very similar in form to that used by the TRB and GAC cultures which preceded them and they buried their dead in large kurgans not often, while the latter Yamnaya were a group who tended more towards elaborate kurgans, and who traded with copper producing societies in the Caucasus and Balkans, and so included more copper items in burial.

We know that these movements were dominated by different y-dna lineages, but R1-Z does appear in some Corded Ware and some Q1b and I2a do show up in Yamnaya. There are also these previewed indications of relatively recent direct relationships not just coincidentally a different profile that had been isolated for over years or so, or anything like this. So are these two societies, or were they just two slightly spatially separated parts of what was in a sense one society linguistically with slightly different regional burials traditions, clans and interactions, who then moved into Europe differently?

What's the better model here? However it seems that in those regions where Yamnaya are going, there are both more people with EEF y-dna and with these sort of EEF:Steppe showing up, while this doesn't really happen in Northern Europe. As another comment, I think the idea of possibly having lineages that are "submarines" under water, non-archaeologically visible, in steppe cultures, which later emerge into the archaeological record when burial rites or clan status change, and also seeing similar introgression levels of EEF into CWC and Yamnaya at the same time, really does possibly pose a bit of a challenge to whether we can confidentally say that "Fatyanovo was derived from Corded Ware", for sure.

Or maybe not, hard to be sure. Leonidas Vlach is a roman language attested at Medieval times. Mesaapic is an Illyrian Language attested at Iron age. Albanian is a non Latin language related to Mesaapic and through common words with Romanian. These are the facts. Can you give a solution, different from what I said above? Leonidas, right! Simply changing the archaeological culture and even changing ethnicity does not imply a biological exchange of the population. Look at Y tree. Everything happens long before any Slavs. We know Y from Sarmatian or Alanian samples, so maybe these snp and younger were later absorbed by groups of Slavs. Matt "really does possibly pose a bit of a challenge to whether we can confidentally say that "Fatyanovo was derived from Corded Ware", for sure.

Its only later material cultures such as Abashevo and Sintashta which move away from the typical eastern CWC model which Fatyanovo followed to a T, with the additions of large-scale metalworking, burial mounds fatyanovo had flat burials rather than kurgans and a horse-centric element to their culture, both in their religions and economies. Matt I think what you see in Corded Ware Culture is also present in western Yamnaya: corded pottery, battle axes, etc. Maybe they do reflect an interaction with north European groups like GAC, which we know were also semi-mobile and moved toward the steppe.

Its not that Yamnaya kurgans were more grand as such, at least not a priori;and not compared to the over-sized Majkop kurgans reflective of true Chiefdoms. Rather, they were liable to be continuously enlarged through successive burials; whilst 'CWC" kurgans tended to be single use. This points to divergent cultural choices in that specific domain. But overall, they speak of the same ideological dialogue. Was it standard for Yamnaya to put new burials into already existing Kurgans? Hence is this why Corded Ware is often referred to as Single Grave culture?

Yet Corded Ware doesn't. This really makes it seem there is something culturally divergent from Corded Ware. If they do come from yamnaya, they must come from Early Yamnaya who archaeologists didn't notice practiced different burial customs. Dranoel, old Slavic Central European paternal lines justify the fact that the Slavs live in Central Europe from the beginning of their ethnogenesis. Rob, I wonder if we will genomically be able to see any evidence of the Western Yamnaya groups interacting with any particular EEF ancestry group that distinguishes between them.

Copper Axe, you're probably right on that one; actually one thing I did just check was the IBD matching slide that Ringbauer showed off as ISBA, and that does show Fatyanovo does have a bit more connectivity with the Corded Ware compared to the Yamnaya. So it does sort of evidence that idea a bit more firmly genetically and conform to an archaeological signal - that Fatyanovo either did branch off later from the more western CWC after both had branched from Yamnaya, or were having geneflow more frequently from them after dispersal.

These IBD matching methods are not just dissolving the idea of Yamnaya and CWC as separate by showing more connectivity between them, but also showing that there is intragroup connectivity within them that can't be attributed solely to deep ancestry. That might be a reassuring thing to note for some people who are bit wary that these methods are just overly conflating or connecting different cultural traditions. There's also that bit of substructure where the Western Yamnaya match a bit less with the Eastern Yamnaya. But in the beginning population autosomaly was much more diverse. So we have to go by paternal lines to look for Slavs.

Genos ''Was it standard for Yamnaya to put new burials into already existing Kurgans? You'd have a founder grave, then others would be added episodically over time. And each time it happened, the barrow was enlarged This didnt happen north of the steppe. After the founder generation, women and children, and eventually community burials developed, increasingly flat. But they could also re-use TRB megaliths, for ex. Matt ''wonder if we will genomically be able to see any evidence of the Western Yamnaya groups interacting with any particular EEF ancestry group that distinguishes between them. So it was a rather focalised interaction, followed by secondary dispersal within Yamnaya networks.

We see that different groups lived in the same region at the same time, but occupied distinct areas within it. They mostly kept to themselves, and exchange was mostly limited to individual transactions rather than wholescale admixture. Which is what we see in the DNA. And this exchange could have been a marriage exchange or two chiefs giving gifts to each other to keep the peace, so to speak. Conflicts was probably more an exception than the rule. Although overtime, these groups would have differential success rate for various reasons. Genos, as far as I know the term "Single Grave" has tended to be used in two ways 1 more recently to refer to tends just is a broad way as "Single Grave Burial Rite" "SGBR Culture" to refer to particular tradition of burial of single individuals in whole, undecomposed in a crouched burial, with burial goods, after which the grave was not reopened and the bones were not manipulated or moved or anything like that.

Again, as far as I know the Yamnaya culture practiced this sort of single burial too, but had multiple burial pits built up the burial mounds over time as Rob described. Other cultures in Europe sometimes did or did not practice these sort of single burials. For example think the GAC culture did generally, as I understand although with different grave goods e. This is why back when ignoring the bioarchaeology of skull shape was the fashion, CWC was thought by some to emerge from GAC without migration.

Another example of indiviual burial in the Copper Age - "The dominant Baden Culture mortuary rite was individual interment in an extramural cemetery. Sometimes individuals where sometimes mixed up, and then possibly later removed. Some people think that in the Copper Age is related to these cultures having the idea that once people died they joined into a collective of ancestors that would protect or watch over the community, and so the burial deemphasized them as individuals, although I wonder if it could be as simple as that monuments took significant effort from a community and it would be more efficient in terms of space to have lots of bones in the same place.

The greatly reduced space taken up by an ossuary means that it is possible to store the remains of many more people in a single tomb than in coffins. Yet another post about Southern Europe, that gets hijacked by discussions about the northern European population. Does actually someone have any comments to make on the implications of this pre-print on the formation of the modern Balkan peoples? There are plenty of posts to discuss Corded Ware.

The Slavic impact on the Balkans was huge, and my own personal interest is to elucidate how the Slavic, Alan, Gothic and other newcomers gradually merged with the preceding populations to form the ethnic groups we observe in the Balkans today. However, the Balkans of classical and late antiquity hosted some of the most linguistically and ethnically diverse populations of Europe. I'm sure they at least merit a discussion focused on them EastPole, we still had the Balto-Slavic stage on the way.

Therefore, the closest to the truth are probably Russian scientists including geneticists who claim that the ethnogenesis of the Slavs took place somewhere in the Przeworsk culture. In the first stage, the Slavs spread along with the expansion of Przeworsk, Wielbark and Cherniakhov culture, and in the second stage they migrated in small groups from different places in all directions. The time period from BC to BC is especially of significant importance.

I want to see what Greeks were like then, genetically. Then we can talk about Slavic admixture. Modelling the modern ones with the Myceneans as the base reference isn't that helpful IMO. The Mycenaeans predate the Dorian invasion so the classical Greeks could be a bit different. Matt One of the few very well preserved SGC burials from the Netherlands - very close to where the dutch Bell Beaker samples came from - actually shows signs of being left on a burial bed. He has animal gnaw marks everywhere. From Przeworsk some Lechitic tribes could have originated. Slavic ethnogenesis took place thousands of years earlier.

I am not talking about it and I am not questioning anything. This blog has covered this topic many times. This is not a primary area for Slavic genesis. So you cannot call Y or the whole Y as Slavic because it couldn't be. Leonidas D In my statements it was not about changing the subject, but only about "correcting" the issue of Y That's all. Analyzing contemporary SNPs, it can be seen that people below PH in this region are not very common, and as they are, they are contemporary migrants from Central Europe.

My statement did not concern Y which is more eastern. I suspect, probably like you, that this is an old local Carpathian Baltic BA type component. In the Jastorf culture firmly to the west of the Oder-Neisse-line? Didn't the Goths migrate along the Vistula to the Ukraine, along with the Wielbark culture that gave rise to the Cherniakhov culture? Of course if the Imperial Roman admixture is strong enough, that might have reduced the incidence of blond hair, too. I really don't know for sure. According to Pliny, the Boii had "disappeared" from the Aemilia. But maybe they were just thoroughly assimilated by his time. Then there's the evidence of the Roman centuriation, the division of the farming land into small parcels that can still be seen today.

These parcels were given to Roman citizens. But on the other hand they were used for farming, not to be settled by large masses of Romans. If this female was indeed pre-Roman, she was probably Celtic speaking too. The Senones in Italy came from northern France, this may have influenced my model. But considering my geographical roots I probably have also Celtic ancestry from the Raurici and Vindelici. In northern Italy there were different waves of Celtic invasions, some coming via southern France, and others from a more northern route, I guess they were genetically different. This apparent genetic difference between the Emilia and the Romagna makes sense historically, because the Romagna belonged to the central Italian papal states for most of the time.

It's just odd that I seem to lack the strong Anatolian admixture associated with central Italy. Maybe my Italian grandfather had it, and I just missed it by chance. But shouldn't these old short segments be spread quite evenly across the genome? Dranoel My comment was not directed at you. EastPole, linguistic dating must always be approached with a wide margin of confidence. Contemporary linguists like Babik teach us that linguistic differentiation is a long process. Specific Slavic and Baltic innovations might have arisen a long time ago, but their layering took a long time before the Slavic and Baltic dialects became completely incomprehensible to each other.

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